Vice Director (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
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contrappasso2016-05-03 09:00 pm
vicedirector) wrote in contrappasso2016-05-03 09:00 pm
Feedback post
Congratulations on achieving SevenVice's Golden End! You guys did great.
Thank you everyone for participating and doing your best. For all of us, this was our first time modding and it was a learning experience.
So, feedback! If you guys have any feedback you'd like to say, please say so here. You can leave praise, constructive criticism, advice, etc, but please keep it constructive.
All comments will be screened unless you request for your comment to be unscreened. If you'd like this, please say so at the beginning or end of your comment.
Thank you everyone for participating and doing your best. For all of us, this was our first time modding and it was a learning experience.
So, feedback! If you guys have any feedback you'd like to say, please say so here. You can leave praise, constructive criticism, advice, etc, but please keep it constructive.
All comments will be screened unless you request for your comment to be unscreened. If you'd like this, please say so at the beginning or end of your comment.
no subject
First of all, I would like to thank Anna for dealing with my literally everything in the duration of Vices. I do realize that my behavior throughout wasn't always stellar, especially OOCly, and I feel that my actions might have impacted the plot negatively and possibly twisted it in such a way that it just ended up kind of rocky and confusing near the end, and that honestly was not my intention in the slightest bit. Nevertheless, I do feel like I owe you guys a prompt apology, regardless; I was having several problems RL which may have definitely affected my rash behavior. This was my first time handling a big role in a murder game, so I jumped the gun on a lot of things and I felt that I didn't communicate very well, and for that, again, I deeply apologize. If you want to discuss the issue more in depth privately, I am willing to talk things out via PM, so please do not hesitate to contact me.
Things like this tend to go over my head, as I am not self aware, although I did do some huge reflecting on my actions during the game overall and felt that there were some things that I could have done a lot differently, and were, on my part, handled bad.
On another note, in regards to the mods: I think a lot of you guys did a great job handling most of the trials - I'm pretty sure everyone else has already spoken my thoughts re: the trial with Buddy, but altogether, it was great.
My problems re: endgame were mostly the fact that while, yes, I was gone all day on Saturday due to a concert - when I came back I didn't see much going on, so I thought that maybe I'd have the chance to jump in somehow. However, I didn't feel like I was able to jump in at any point from both an OOC and IC standpoint until the very end, and I felt that the climax was kind of... disappointing, I guess? I feel like there were a lot of plot points that were actually there that didn't actually matter in the end? I just felt like those facts were just there, but they didn't actually impact the story as much as I thought it would have.
Another thing is that, and I'm pretty sure Anna probably already knows this, but I'll repeat it here is the fact that there were too many NPCs in game handled by one person. There were at least 9+ characters that were NPCs off the top of my head, and while I'm not 100% certain if they were all ran by Anna, I feel like it was a bit... much, maybe? But that's just my $.02 on the matter, really.
I don't have much else to say honestly, but I would honestly like to thank everyone who worked on this game and those especially who worked with me in both the main plotline, the subplots, and the murder cases that Inaba herself was involved with!
no subject
As for my part in plot fiasco, I’m definitely not saying that I’m not without blame. As a mod, I should have paid more attention to end game and I should not have excused certain behaviors! For that, I apologize to the players that were hurt and affected. I feel like if there was better communication and more transparency on multiple fronts, I could have done something. That said, I honestly also feel like I can only apologize so much when I was both busy and not kept in the loop or utilized with some decisions which is one of my main criticisms for the game.
I also just really want to clarify that, despite what was said in coordination plurk about end game defaulting to my plot... The plot everyone got was not my plot.. I'm honestly not sure what everyone got but I'm assuming it was all a part of Anna's original plot which included a trial, final battle with the demons, etc. Plot really dragged out because of how incredibly NPC heavy it was and I feel like you (Anna) were stretched very thin and this is exactly what I wanted to avoid when I gave you my original plot which omitted the battle with the NPCS. I feel like I gave a lot of advice and suggestions throughout the game but they were all ignored in favor of whatever you already had in mind in which case, I do have some other problems.
I feel like end game was entirely too dependent on NPCs given how much you can handle at a time and furthermore, I think there was definitely blatant mod favoritism based on how your NPCs were perceived. I really can't help but notice how characters that doted on and had positive CR with your NPCs received much more opportunity than those who were adverse towards NPCs. The most clear example of this is Lithuania's plot which was allowed to completely take over end game and lockout players that had expressed negative opinions about Miata. I don't understand why I wasn't consulted on at all about this because I was very much misled on how Lithuania's plot was going to tie into end game.
I went from thinking LIthuania's plot was going to be a small, closed group in the graveyard that would get maybe 25-50% success... to come back one day and it was suddenly actually end game. When it was first brought up to me-- by Mel, not Anna-- I approved it and gave some advice. I caught onto it growing some and suggested expanding it but again, I never thought it would actually become end game. I mean, why would I if it was never otherwise brought to my attention by you or if I was never consulted on it in an official way? I feel like I came back one day and it was suddenly end game plot which completely blindsided me and I don't know what players were included in that second plurk where the concerns were brought up but thank you for bringing up your concerns because I never would have known otherwise.
When I was doing my intial investigating, I felt like this plot lockout was the result of a lack of miscommunication & transparency ooc and I feel like yes, some characters were unfortunately locked out because of this. For these characters, I, again, apologize. However, some things just don't add up. I can understand Rhys being excluded for IC reasons but why characters like Morrigan? Break and Gilbert? Maybe you were afraid they were too against Miata but at the same time, if the plot was just opened up, I'm 100% certain we could have found a way to include these characters without even needing to get creative. Morrigan literally died for Buddy. I bet she'd do whatever she could to help Buddy survive. Gilbert has a hostage he needs to protect! Break would have helped Gilbert. Heck, even Rhys had a hostage he needed to save. Yes, I understand that these reasons were supposedly for "IC" reasons but... when the plot becomes so large that it includes the majority... you need to include everyone for the sake of fairness. I don't understand how multiple people could become immediately aware of this but neither Anna nor Mel were? And the only thing that really makes sense is... one part Lithuania getting mod favoritism and a chance to be the star and one part completely wanting to avoid negative CR with Miata which brings me to the next concern.
Avoidance isn't an option when you're modding. I saw this before end game when I was doing mystery plots, investigations, and trials. It happened several times but I'll just mention the one that stands out most in recent memory because it rubbed me the wrong way. In week 9, I said pretty clearly I was going to be really busy that week and suggested you bring Aki on board to temporarily help to which you agreed. I was under the assumption that Aki would help and you would take over the main plotting but... you were hardly around at all and even though I was incredibly busy, I had to do most of the plotting myself. I'm strongly under the impression that you weren't paying attention to the plurk at all because when I posted the finalized document and everything for you to do investigation... you messed up Faize's sword. It was literally the very last thing we debated before wrapping up the document. Yes, I could have been more clear in the murder document but also, if you'd even been paying attention a little bit to the plotting plurk, you would have caught on. But that really wasn't what rubbed me the wrong way.
What rubbed me the wrong way was when Katar and Ki mentioned it... you just disappeared. You stopped responding to the investigation and the plotting plurk. I was on my phone checking and I could see you dicking around in moles plurk and having fun while investigation was stalled and Katar and Ki were waiting for something to get resolved. I came back home finally and watched for a little while with nothing happening and had to take over. I was the one who wrapped up investigation and made the retcon/apology plurk about the mix up. And I get that part of the problem it took so long to resolve was because Lum went to bed that night but... you had like, a solid hour at least to do something about it before I came back and took over. And when I bring this mix up, I by no means am trying to say I've never made mistakes in trials/investigations because I sure have but at least I fixed my mistakes and communicated them to the players instead of leaving everyone hanging and the game stalled.
I get that modding is very stressful. Good. Lord. I know its stressful but honestly, if you aren’t capable of accepting criticism and taking action without completing avoiding the issue, you shouldn’t mod in the future. If the game isn’t your going way, the solution isn’t to just disappear to play Fire Emblem or else I would have done that too. And when I'm still trying to do damage control and take care of the game... the attitude to take with me isn't to be curt and snippy either. I'm frustrated too but man, I'm trying. I tried.
Again, I want to apologize to the players who were dragged into the both over and underwhelming mess that became end game. I feel like I did the best I could with the information I had to work with and the time I had available but hindsight is 20/20 and I feel like I could have done a lot more. You guys deserve a lot more. I’m also, once more, very sorry for all of the players that were made upset by the plot lockout because I definitely gave bad advice there and did not pay attention as much as I could have. I'm also very sorry that I let some things fly that never should have.
For all my grievances, I did have a fun time. I loved and adored all of my CR and even with characters I didn't have CR with, I enjoyed reading a lot of your threads. Thank you again to everyone who helped with every mystery plot I worked on and thank you everyone for being patient with me while I fumbled through my first attempt at modding. It was definitely a learning experience but if it wasn't a fun one too, I would have ollied out ages ago.
I also don't want this to look like I'm trying to attack you or anyone. Like I said, I had a lot of fun and I think the game was run relatively well, albeit with several rocky moments, until about the last 2-3 weeks and several of the people I spoke to agreed. But unless you can really take this advice to heart, I wouldn't advise modding again.
Whoops, and sorry for switching between general you/you and names but I'm like 1/2 proxying and 1/2 typing for myself but I wouldn't post anything I didn't agree with.
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1) Scheduling. There was never a firm schedule as to what time investigations and trials would go up. While the vague assumption was that trials would be posted around 5PM CST, sometimes they wouldn't go up until hours later. While I think this did get better once Eski got on board, the lack of a firm time that the trial would go up was still pretty frustrating to me. Investigations were even more sporadic when it came to the schedule - I never had any clue when they'd be going up, which made it really difficult to be around to tag them.
2) Availability. This one I had a huge issue with. It often seemed like during trials, getting hold of you to answer questions became a chore. While I understand not being around the entire trial or needing to wait on answers from the players involved, there were frequent instances where the trial would be stalled for hours because you weren't around for answers. If you're not going to be available at some point during a trial - and no one expects you to be around every second - then you should let one of your co-mods know so they can take over for you. Additionally, I saw you plurk a few times about other RPs or playing videogames when we were waiting on you for mod replies or posts to go up, which struck me as pretty disrespectful of your players. You don't have to give up everything when you mod a murdergame, but you shouldn't just ignore it and make players wait for you because you're feeling stressed.
3) NPC/metaplot intensity/vagueness. As the game headed towards endgame and more of the metaplot was revealed, it felt more and more like we were simply playing in a story you had already written and that our characters had very little actual agency or impact on where the game was going. I honestly kind of got the sense that we were all the NPCs and Miata and Katerina were the ones calling all the shots. None of the backstory the players discovered seem to be helpful towards them breaking the game, and with the posts now unlocked, it doesn't really seem like the moles had much of a purpose either. The metaplot of a murdergame should be the backdrop to the players and cases, and yet here it felt like the players were the distraction from the metaplot. Also, a lot of plot points seemed like they got dropped or went nowhere? The doors, for example, while interesting didn't seem to lead to anything actually related to endgame beyond Sans finding Sloth.
4) Endgame lockout. While I was initially sympathetic to you for being stressed about endgame as I've certainly been there before, upon reviewing the situation and learning more about it, I have to say that you handled the situation where a group of active players got locked out of endgame rather abysmally. Yes, it was originally a player plot, but as the head mod it's your job to catch these things and either nip it in the bud or open it up so everyone can participate. It shouldn't have to take completely unrelated players to have to point out to you and the person running the plot that a) it kind of sucks cutting the survivors out and making endgame focus almost entirely around the ghosts and a character that had close CR with the NPC and b) excluding a group of highly active characters from even knowing about the endgame plot for IC reasons that honestly didn't make a lot of sense, let alone participating in it, is not a cool move. Whether you didn't realize how hurtful this was to the players involved or simply weren't paying enough attention to realize how big the plot had gotten, either way the lack of action until people had to call you out of it was honestly appalling.
Also, I felt like there was some bad IC/OOC bleed regarding Team Shady, as the "IC reason" they were also locked out was that they were a team that would support each other no matter what. However, Team Shady was just an fun little OOC nickname for these characters, and in actuality they were simply a group of okay friends who shared a few beliefs at the start of the game and also had one of their members die week 3. By the time endgame rolled around, you could definitely argue that Break and Gilbert were as close to Clover and Undyne as they were to Morrigan, if not closer, and yet they were locked out thanks to a nickname bestowed on them at the start of the game that hadn't really been relevant for weeks.
5) General avoidance. Look, I get modding murdergames can be hard. I get it can be stressful and that sometimes you need to take a break. I have been there multiple times! But if it gets to the point where you're avoiding the game for days and aren't even paying attention to what's happening because you're stressed thanks to IC PvP or feedback - which happened multiple times in this game - you should really reconsider modding them at all. Modding murdergames will always be stressful and time-intensive, and murdergame NPCs will always have negative CR. Those are just the facts.
Also, I noticed that you never really thanked Eski or the rest of your mods in public beyond a few instances of specific jobs they had done, which strikes me as really inappropriate. Considering that it's come into light how much work Eski did for this game, it honestly leaves a bad taste in my mouth that you never thanked her publicly at the end of the game or acknowledged how much effort she put in, and was simply content with taking the majority of the credit for the cases and trials when people thanked you for running them. While most of the other behavior I'm willing to excuse as simply the mistakes of a first-time murdergame mod, this is the one that will be making me avoid any other murdergames you mod in the future unless you've shown that you've learned from this experience and changed your behavior accordingly.
ALL THAT SAID AND DONE, I don't want this to feel like a huge attack on you or that I'm trying to make you feel ashamed of all the work you did in this game! A lot of this, such as scheduling slip and dropped threads, I completely recognize as simply the mistakes that every mod makes, especially a first-timer. I did have a lot of fun in Seven Vices and I built up some killer CR and made a ton of great new friends, so thank you for that! The things that worked really did work (I loved the ghost mechanic for example, I think that was a great way to have the dead still be involved in the main game). I just think that if you are looking to mod something again in the future, to please take the lessons from this game to heart.
unscreened please!
Ultimately, I feel like you didn't handle things so bad near the beginning, Anna — the game ran pretty smoothly despite some bumps with the trials, and it seemed like you mostly were just wearing yourself a little thin by being the main one working on murders, which I get and sympathize with. It sucks when you have to do everything by yourself, or when people are generally uncooperative — that can be a big speed bump in the creative process and be discouraging or disheartening when working on other things in game.
Despite this, I do feel as though a lot of important matters were ignored and there was too much of a reliance on handwaving key plot elements. It doesn't feel good to feel like someone doesn't want to thread with you, and I noticed several threads that hinged on mod availability and prompt responses going unfinished — some examples include Rhys, Morrigan, Gilbert, and Break's traipse through one of the doors, Ranulf's kill log, Sans's threads with Belphegor (which were finished eventually), and Break and Rhys's kill log. People apply to murdergames to RP, so when handwaving and not finishing threads happens frequently.. well, RPing really isn't happening as it should.
I feel as though the main issue with the metaplot was how much it hinged on empathy, as well as it's heavy usage of original lore and vernacular — I'll discuss both these separately, and why I feel like they were an issue.
In regards to the role of empathy in the plot, I felt as though it locked certain characters out from plot points — along with this, it seemed like there was a disconnect between intent and execution here. Miata in particular was meant to be a sympathetic character, but it was difficult for that to be conveyed at times, and often it seemed like she teetered between being a tragic character and being quite unsympathetic. Along with this, it incentivized interaction with Miata, and made it to where only characters who ICly made an attempt to get to know her were privy to the ongoings of the metaplot. It seemed like, because of this, heavy assumptions were made of the characters in the game, which is why I feel like characters like Morrigan, Break, and Gilbert were locked out — it was assumed that they would not cooperate with Miata, and thus were not 'invited' to help out. If anything, the players locked from the plot could have been PP'd and been asked if it would be IC for them to help. It doesn't feel especially good to be effectively ostracized from the plot of a game, especially one that you've been active in, because the character you play is mean or difficult to get along with. I think, because of this, some players felt pressured to make OOC decisions for their characters for the sake of the game's metaplot and NPCs, when it really should be the other way around — a game's NPCs and metaplot should serve to facilitate IC decisions for the characters. It seemed as though Anna had a set ending in mind, and didn't want the game to bad end, so it made players stop caring because their IC actions would not change anything anyway.
I think Eski's endgame proposal would have worked better here — players should feel like they have both OOC and IC choices in regards to where the plot goes, and what Eski proposed would provide that.
The role of empathy in the plot also led to some other strange things — in particular, I took issue with the role of Lettland and how it was situated as basically fantasy Lithuania when Lithuania was being played in game. It made it seem as though the game was specifically about Lithuania saving the fantasy country at times, which, I believe, resulted in characters dragging their feet through the endgame, because their players didn't know how exactly they were meant to contribute.
This leads into what I perceived as an issue with lore in the game! Key plot points were not revealed into much later — this effectively took out a lot of the 'mystery' of the game's metaplot, and instead turned it into a strange sort of political plot, which I don't think any players not included in the moles could have predicted based on content provided up til that point. I'm all for a game having a strong metaplot, and I think the game could have been quite interesting if it was explained a little better. Along with this, the way magic worked in the game was not really explained in detail, and when pressed it was just referred to as 'unique', despite Katerina seemingly being a normal girl who dabbled in magic. I feel like this was a missed opportunity for other players to get involved — someone like Morrigan and Selena could have been given IC roles here, or even characters like Papyrus and Sans, due to possessing an affinity for magic. Even characters with abilities not pertaining specifically to magic could have been useful — Break and Gilbert have experience with contracting otherworldly beings, Clover is effectively a psychic within her own right, Rhys and Alisha are adept at orating and negotiating, but ultimately these characters were underutilized.
This is, of course, where the oft-cited criticism of the NPCs comes into play too. It was unclear at times the role that the demons played in game, and, for a while there, it seemed like they were mostly going to be irrelevant — until the very end, of course, when endgame hinged on the demons involvement. I think this is why feet were dragged through most of the endgame — players were unsure how things worked ICly and not a lot of direction was given, so no one really knew what they could and couldn't do in regards to the magic. Basically, this ended with the game having a deus ex machina ending — everything was conveniently tied up, and it didn't really feel like the players earned a good ending — though I understand why, after what happened with the original endgame, it was best to end it this way.
The role of magic and lore also effected the mechanics of the game quite heavily, but in ways that I felt were unnecessary — characters in the graveyard were unable to do much of anything for many, many weeks, due to not being able to see anything outside of the hotel for seemingly no reason than just to be restrictive. This was a mistake, in my opinion, and one reason why a lot of players seemed to bail once arriving to the graveyard. There was just nothing left to do, and hauntings can only be so fun for so long, especially when they required heavy mod mediation.
In summary, I did enjoy Vices, but around the halfway mark it really started to lull itself into becoming undone. Please don't think of this as a diatribe against you, Anna, because I do realize that you cared about this game a lot — but if you intend to mod a game again, I think you should consider taking some of the advice here. Thanks for reading.
unscreen please!
Anyone looking at the graveyard can already see with the date and time on the Sans+Belphegor thread that it happened, nearly in its entirety, during the last few hours of endgame. I have no idea if this was planned in any way because I was ... not contacted about it in any capacity. I showed up in the endgame plurk to make a few jokes, though I'd been keeping loose track of what was happening-- at that point I'd assumed the last Sans vs Bel thread was dropped, which I was okay with because with the mole reveal there wasn't much Sans would've been able to learn ICly that was of any relevance, so I didn't mind. Anna, I don't know if my presence in the plurk alerted you that I was online and you'd been waiting for that and that's why you started tagging the thread again, or if you got the idea suddenly to tie things up using that... But a heads up to what you wanted from it OOC would've been nice? And if you'd contacted me before hand, it would've been easy to find out I was around, just doing other stuff. It was discussed in game and in a few plurks that Sans might ask Sloth to withdraw, so I figured that's what you wanted from the thread and tried my best to fit that in in as little time as possible to accommodate the endgame, but I'm not sure what would've happened if I hadn't assumed that's what the thread was about? Or if I'd been unavailable to tag or missed the e-mail, etc.
I absolutely don't mind the role Sans ended up with in endgame, and I can't say I was neglected as far as mod threads go-- all of mine were finished in pretty good delay save that one, which I was fine with, etc, but the fact that the golden end seems to have hinged on me finishing a thread no one had any idea would be an important thing at the last second was a bit... well, I can't disagree with people who feel like it was random and out of nowhere, because it very much was, at least timing wise.
Anyway, I had no problem accommodating anything modwise, and if Sans convincing Belphegor was the plan all along or even part of it, communicating with me earlier or at all might've made endgame seem less of a deus ex? I wouldn't have minded handwaving the thread if it came to that, and just have Sans tell other people he'd done it or something to that effect. If it wasn't and was actually a last minute decision because of the problems with endgame, the same point applies. I was also a bit uncomfortable with how it ended up looking incredibly random to the living players, who should've had more of a part to play in endgame.
Well, these are just my personal grievances, but I think it was part of the overall problem of lack of communication. Other people have already expressed in better ways than I can their problems with endgame, so I just wanted to share my POV on how it happened.
no subject
Hey! So I do agree with the feedback that's already been provided by Cappy/Eski/Marion here so I won't rehash them, but I did want to bring up some additional points. I did feel it was very difficult, personally, to get any traction with the NPCs, and with the latter half of the game shifting to be so centered around NPCs, it made it difficult to break in. Trials were also very confusing and difficult to engage in - especially with virtue or sin traits being critical evidence and so much of the handwaving/retconing. I can only speak for myself here, but! Trials can be overwhelming to begin with, considering how they explode, so the added confusion made it really difficult for me to know how to get involved. The inconsistent timing of plot posts was a definite factor there as well.
The issue with trying to make Miata sympathetic is that at the end of the day, regardless of her motives or whether she's forced, she's facilitating the murdergame. It's a little unrealistic to expect most victims (especially more cynical/abrasive types) of said murdergame to sympathize with her, and, as a player of murdergames yourself, Anna, you must seen the pattern in the past where the host characters were mostly loathed before characters slowly started to warm up to them OR they established a rapport with the PCs/bonded with them/helped them and won them over. Having that said, it's absurd (as well as very unfair) to limit the involvement of the characters less likely to sympathize in such a situation. Realistically, most people wouldn't, and I think that's something that needs to be factored in when playing host characters.
I also wasn't quite sure what the purpose of the moles were. Presumably Miata was aware of whatever the players were doing, and because the plot ended up being so focused on the NPCs (rather than a strong player lead rebellion or something that might require moles), it seemed very moot a point to me.
Another note on OOC communication! Even if there are concerns about IC meshing, there is no reason to not oocly include the players whose characters may or may not pose complications, especially so late in the game. Those players could have easily communicated whether or not they'd go along with the plan and even if not, I'm sure they would have been more than willing to work out a compromise. I was also not included in the planning plurk or ic discussion -- I can see the logic behind it, but in the same breath, my character's involvement was planned without my knowledge or consent and the entire thing ended up changing to null most graveyard participation anyway. Now, I agree the survivors take priority here, but the inconsistencies did bug me.
Re: NPC involvement - the others above me have already verbalized this better than I could have, but I did have a suggestion if you ever wanted to run a similar plot again. Rather than stretching yourself thin to try to play seven sins, instead, you could handpick one character from each sin and have them possessed by that sin and given special plot roles and tidbits of information. That would have been a neat way to keep the metaplot and lore while giving characters more agency, and with the moles in mind, they could have been actively working against them, also giving moles more to do and a better way to live up to their name. And most importantly: it would be far less pressure on you, especially for the last week where there were so many NPC threads to take care of. Having players in the sin positions, for example, would have allowed them to do kill logs instead of you -- and deathrolled characters could have had a chance to pass on information or try to get through to them, etc.
Ultimately, if the NPCs were meant to play such a huge role in the story, they should have been established and present much earlier. Before the shounen battle (which was wonderful, by the way, but I think other characters should have had opportunities like that as well), they hardly appeared and they didn't seem relevant. When their heavy involvement was revealed, I felt like we players were mostly just spectators or background support characters.
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That being said the other 15% was pretty much not at all how I anticipated surviving til end game would be.
The scheduling in this game was an absolute nightmare. I knew that my hours were pretty ridiculous working two jobs and I was going to struggle with participation if I didn't seriously stay on top of this game. I knew this. However when something is scheduled to be up at a certain time I expect it to be up within a reasonable amount of time from the time set. Obviously stuff happens and adjustments have to be made but. This was ridiculous.
A trial went up super late on Saturday so to compensate for it going up super late the Sunday post was posted early. Well. That's nice and all except I had limited time to work through anything by the time the trial went up on Saturday because I had work in the morning. Then I was at work when the trial went up early to compensate for the first day of trial going up late. I missed hours of this trial that I should have only missed an hour or two of it max had everything gone up when it was supposed to.
Did I mention I was a suspect in that trial? Did I mention that none of the other four suspects were even around for that second day of trial when the post went up earlier? How do you have a trial with NONE of the suspects being able to be there when it starts.
End game schedule was slated for Saturday and Sunday. Most of Saturday was completely gone by the time the post finally went up at 8pm. That's ridiculous. Then we were told the Sunday post would go up earlier to compensate for Saturday going up so late. It went up ridiculously late again with the added bonus of completely wasting my day.
I had to be at work at 8:30am in the morning on Monday. There was no reason for me to be up til after midnight threading out the end game that never ends. And especially not with that ending.
So getting chided for time sensitivity with tagging on plurk while I was shoving my face full of tater tots because I put off getting dinner waiting for the post to go up sorta rubbed me the wrong way just a little bit.
I wasn't going to initially bring this up because I was ultimately spared but I figured I'd bring it up anyways because it really did bother me.
The week I did not really have AC I was completely cool with murdering/dying. Honestly. I did not have AC and it was completely legit to ask me to provide a murder plot/be a victim.
Except I wasn't the first person you rolled for RNG with no AC. I wasn't even the second person you rolled for RNG with no AC. I wasn't the third person you rolled for RNG with no AC. I was actually the last person you rolled for RNG because everyone else you rolled was going to a con. That's not RNG. And it's especially not fair when for the most part I had been pretty active and other characters who were going to cons were participating at the bare minimum. If even that.
Especially when after I brought up to you that it was Easter and probably no one would be around that weekend for the holiday to even participate in a trial. While you eventually decided to do a free week you first opted to pressure me with the fact that you didn't have any other options. I was the only one left you had no other options and I HAD to go that week. I found that pretty inappropriate to be honest. Especially since I said I would do it, I was just expressing concern that no one would be around to be active and the trial would flop.
There were too many NPC's. It was too much for any one person to handle. Every interaction I had with an NPC was dropped to the point that I stopped bothering to interact with them even when my character would have been interested in talking to them.
Regarding Miata. I am pretty sure that 90% of the end game line up thought of Miata in a some what positive light. Definitely at least enough to side with her over Katerina. I have no idea why everything was thrown out the window just because Rhys was completely icly stirring the pot over Miata's intentions.
He was dead. Even if he wasn't dead I can 100% assure you Dhaos and Yoite at the very least would have never gone along with anything Rhys thought was a good idea ever. I don't understand why you lost faith in us as players to the point you felt the need to rip away our ability to make a final choice for endgame. I'm not quite sure what we were here for honestly and I still have no idea how the game ended. And I was there.
And look. Honestly. As Poland's player: Poland and Lithuania should have never been allowed to have been apped as characters in this game. If this game's setting being in fake eastern Europe and the fact that Poland and Lithuania are actual eastern European countries couldn't be handled appropriately, we should have never been allowed to app them here. It completely detracted from the entire game as a whole and I absolutely believe it destroyed the ending of the game for everyone.
I would actually like to apologize to everyone for helping to facilitate Lithuania's and Miata's plot in it's final state. I was led to believe that this was the original intent of end game from the beginning and this was exactly how it was supposed to be played out from the start.
That obviously wasn't true and by the time I was told this I already had Poland enthusiastically present the plot to the other players. I was incredibly disappointed and upset to learn that because of who I chose to app, it changed the tide of the game for the worse and pretty much ruined everything for everyone.
That being said don't get me wrong I totally loved playing Poland. And I know that Poland was loved back. I had a great time with all my cr-- but Poland and Lithuania didn't belong in this game in its current state.
Look at Lithuania's kill log. Now look at Ranulf's kill log.
You don't even have to read those kill logs just look at them.
This was one of the most upsetting things I saw once everything was unlocked. I don't understand how anyone could possibly think that much of a difference in interest in two players is at all appropriate. I can't even believe these were unlocked to be public I would be absolutely mortified to show that level of favoritism towards one character over the other in death threads. These were their final moments, their last hurrah-- they weren't getting a trial like the other characters did.
It's not even like Ranulf was inactive. The character actively participated in every trial and I had some really wonderful interactions with them. This is absolutely unacceptable.
Inaba ended up completely excluded from the final plot in it's final incarnation. There was no reason for Inaba to be in the basement the entire time off screen, something should have been found for her to do if we were never going to make it to the basement in the final version of the plot. She was a final survivor she definitely should have had a role in the end game. Even if it was a hot mess.
Actually considering that there were only eight of us alive at the time I don't know why the plot even attempted to actively exclude Buddy and Inaba honestly. I don't understand why their inclusion hinged on me having Poland icly emphasize that this was the survivor pool and they should all be included in defeating the game. Poland didn't even icly like Inaba at the time so that made it all the more ridiculous that I had to do that.
Then after the final plot essentially threw the living eight under a bus, I really don't understand why half the graveyard was cut out of it.
I really don't understand anything that went on in this game after the last actual trial.
Plus you should really thank Eski and Tsugumi for trying to help you. I don't understand how you could possibly think it's appropriate to ignore all the work they did for this game.
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So, in the end, this is mostly for Anna. I think Eski did a fantastic job for someone who was a) ridiculously busy with rl obligations during the duration of her modship and b) a first time moderator. Eski was always willing to put the players and their enjoyment first and it showed in the way she handled trials and fielding questions on plurk and just general interaction with the playerbase. Eski deserves thanks all around and I'm very grateful for what Eski has done as a mod.
Now, for Anna. I understand that modding can be a hard job, I have done it for many years in the past and I know how stressful it can be. I also understand balancing the story you want to tell with the story the players are creating and finding a middle ground there and also feeling an affection for your own creations that you don't want to give up or find diminished. These are things I sympathize with and you've already received other more thought out comments about game mechanics, the NPC presence, and the way the story was told. So, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to focus on the biggest point of contention in my experience and how you used that to derail the entire end of the game -- that is Rhys and Miata and how your overattachment to Miata as an NPC became a driving force in ruining my characterization and ruining endgame for Rhys and his CR.
Since the beginning of the game there were a lot of ways you interacted with me OOCly that you let leak into IC interactions that very much skewed the way my character was perceived. At first it was light jokes (the “weenie” joke in particular) which I was fine with because seriously, who cares? But over the course of the game, it spiraled into something that was really inappropriate and I think was a contributing factor to how messy endgame got considering how involved Rhys was in the plot.
When you first contacted me about letting Rhys become a mole, I explained that Rhys would help if he thought it was in his best interest and that he wouldn't turn on Miata if he thought she was the good guy. I also explained to you both OOCly and in my application that Rhys #1 trigger is dying, that his main goal is self-preservation. This is a trait I thought would make him especially interesting to play in a murdergame which is a big part of why I apped him. Yet, your reaction when I said that was instant wariness that he would go against Miata. I really didn't think it was a big deal at the time but as the game played out, I thought about it a lot and honestly, that was a really big red flag.
As the game progressed and the development between Miata and Rhys continued, your behavior in the PPs between the moles and how you played Miata jerked back and forth in ways that seemed to sway with your opinion of Rhys and myself. It was very hard not to perceive this as OOC bleed when there would be times Rhys would say something in a tag, I would make a joke in a plurk, and suddenly Miata's reaction to Rhys' tag was… as if she were reacting to my joke and not the actual words I wrote in the tag. This happened constantly.
Now, I know there have been criticisms about how the metaplot became entirely NPC focused. I agree with those criticisms and the type of character that Rhys is, there was no way he couldn't see the metaplot as just something that had nothing to do with him in turn. At this development, the odd jokes and weird reactions towards Rhys ICly and me OOCly just increased. For instance, Miata's entire reaction to Rhys dragging Break to the moles was… weird? She was very antagonistic towards Rhys suddenly when Rhys outright explained to her what was going on in Week Three. Miata told Rhys to come to her if anything bad happened and he did. Then when Gilbert dies and Rhys comes to Miata, she was incredibly antagonistic towards him -- even going so far as talking to Lithuania in Lithuanian about killing Rhys while he was in the room! This was… baffling to me? I wasn't sure when Miata's opinion had soured on Rhys so quickly when there was little to no build up to this? Suddenly, everything was Rhys' fault out of nowhere and that's when OOCly, I began to feel very uncomfortable.
Now, I understand that this feedback is based more on the personal than the actual roleplay and I can't help it because of how strong the OOC bleed came from Miata (and by extension, Lithuania, but this isn't about Mel). Ever since then, things just seemed to go entirely two directions. There was how I was playing my character, reacting to what was ICly said and ICly given and then there was whatever you felt my character was actually doing and running on those assumptions, despite not even being canon familiar. Miata constantly calling Rhys an asshole while all he was trying to do was help her was pretty strange after what I thought was fairly positive development between the two and then when he reacted ICly at being called that, you OOCly shrinking away and avoiding confrontation and dropping the threads. It left me feeling very jerked around and actually kind of guilty! “Am I not explaining Rhys' motivations right? Is my tag too obscure? Did I misread her tag? Should I explain this OOCly with canon examples, since she isn't canon familiar?” It was, again, uncomfortable.
Then there was the thread where Miata revealed the in game plot to Rhys. This is what I know from IC interactions: Miata told the moles at the very beginning of the game that she needed them to do recon and help her break the game. Rhys was all about that! He doesn't want to die! Then she tells him, nine weeks or so later, that she knew why they were dying the whole time and the reason has nothing to do with him. She also says this after saying she's going to quit as Overseer after ICly having a crying fit over a character that was barely even connected to any of them as far as Rhys could tell -- since Miata still hadn't explained anything ICly. In the thread, Rhys has the equivalent of a panic attack at this discovery. Miata is very cruel in response. Here's where it gets weird.
You PP'd me during this thread to tell me you were stressed out over PvP. You also asked me to tell you how to write Miata so Rhys could respond positively to the metaplot. This was inappropriate. I tried to be nice during the PP but even after explaining how OOC it would for Rhys to be sympathetic to this type of plot, you OOCly guilt tripped me about it and continued to insist that the outcome of the thread was positive. I offered at least four times to just kill Rhys if he was that troublesome for the plot but each time you turned me down and again tried to figure out a way to make Miata sympathetic for Rhys, despite me still telling you that wasn't going to happen because it was OOC. I don't understand why I had to butcher the characterization of my character while you weren't able to use your mod powers and your NPC to kill my character. Why couldn't Miata kill him? Why couldn't Leviathan kill him? Everyone knew if he left, he was going to go to Katerina and yet you refused to bend your NPC even a little to stop that while begging me OOCly to change Rhys' mind. Luckily, I was able to find a solution in the fact that the hostages were still in the game but it was one of the most uncomfortable experiences in all of my years of roleplaying.
This is where the fact that you weren't paying attention to the game at all if it didn't have anything to do with Miata and her positive CR became a huge factor. Rhys was not happy with this metaplot. He also did not think it was fair that he was one of the only ones in the entire game who knew this metaplot, especially since quite a number of characters still thought they were dying for reasons that weren't what Rhys perceived as “petty revenge”. He knew Miata was still trying to fix it, to send them home, but he didn't want Miata to be perceived as a hero for it because he considered her just as culpable as Katerina. This is how his opinion developed through IC development and fueled action he took ICly (going around with the recording of Miata and Katerina's conversation to talk to other characters privately and try his best to drop hints about the metaplot, quite vocally opposing Miata in public and private, etc). This is a perfectly fine IC reaction to IC occurrences.
But you turned it into an OOC thing, Anna. Becoming increasingly passive aggressive at me in PPs, dropping threads with Rhys left and right, suddenly coming to me because Rhys “needs” to be killed off when it was obviously not a RNG death and didn't make much sense since ICly, he was one of the few characters aside from Break who knew the entire metaplot and had a connection with ghosts. It would have made sense for him to survive if your plan for the last week was to have the characters investigate the town. At this point, it was pretty clear you just wanted to get rid of me? I was fine with dying but it was a surprise and combined with everything else, it left a bad taste in my mouth. Why didn't you just kill Rhys during that argument beforehand? Was it because Miata would be the one to do it? She had ICly threatened to kill him a few times before that and now, she couldn't? The back and forth of Miata's opinion on Rhys with little to no explanation or logic to it just really threw me for a loop.
Then the fact that you completely stopped the investigation for the survivors when Rhys and Break decided to give the ghosts an IC summary of all the knowledge they knew when this had nothing to do with the living, that was baffling. So what if the ghosts knew the metaplot? It was about the survivors now. They were the ones who had to discover the mysteries and save the game. It was in their hands. Why did you completely halt the plot just because Rhys and Break told the ghosts… why they were dying, basically? That wasn't fair to the players of the ghosts and that wasn't fair to the players of the survivors.
And now we get to the plot lockout. There was nothing about this that made sense. Rhys had never once breathed a word about killing Miata, only disliking her. Those aren't the same thing. I have explained to you many times that Rhys isn't really capable of murder. If you had been paying attention to the game, you would have noticed he talked to quite a few characters about doing his best to save their hostages and bring them back from the dead. He didn't care about Miata and Katerina's revenge plot at that point, he only cared about helping everyone survive because Rhys is a good guy. You fundamentally misunderstood core factors of my character because you didn't like how they fit into your plot. You aren't canon familiar with my character yet assumed how I was playing Rhys and went ahead with your assumptions instead of ever stopping to ask me what was going on. You locked out me and my CR from participating in the end of the game because of how badly you misinterpreted my character despite my many explanations to the contrary and IC threads outright contradicting these assumptions. That wasn't fair to me, that wasn't fair to the players of Rhys' CR and that was just a dick move all around.
This was my first experience in a murdergame and while I really liked the players I met and the CR I made, the fact that all of my attempts at getting involved in the plot were faced with such weird responses OOCly and then thrown out the window for a version of my character that was completely OOC and going against everything I had threaded to that point -- it really soured the whole experience for me. I didn't do anything wrong. I played my character ICly to the best of my ability and did my best to help the plot along and be active. I was up for Rhys being killed and I didn't even care if he was a survivor or not -- but the fact that so much of the endgame was derailed just because Rhys ICly did not like Miata, that wasn't fair to any of the players in this game.
I know I haven't talked about game mechanics or trials or anything else but I think everyone else has covered a lot of what needed to be said for that. Instead, I want to explain my side of this whole debacle and how I'm really honestly very sorry to everyone if anything I did OOCly or Rhys did ICly contributed to the implosion of the endgame. That wasn't my intention and as you all can see now, it wasn't anything I even tried to encourage.
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That being said I am going to have to reiterate several points other have brought up:
1.) NPC's. There were a lot of NPC's in this game and while I didn't have a problem with it based on sheer numbers, I did have a problem with it in that threads were dropped left and right. While I understand that due to the volume it would take a while to respond, sometimes I was left weeks between a reply-- which got very confusing on my end trying to keep track of what my character knew when and where. After having looked at the logs, I can see that I wasn't the only one where this happened either. It was even more frustrating because the information he received he certainly would have shared...but I couldn't because I was waiting for the information in the first place.
Personally I am left bewildered to why if such a number of NPC's was necessary (and once again I have no problem with the number per se), why they were not divied up between the other mods. While in hindsight maybe this looked doable, once it was clear that it was not, why was plot information not passed along to the other moderators? While I understand there may have been some personal attachment to characters, it should have never affected the game as a whole, which it did.
2.) End Game
There are a lot of issues I had with end game. While I mentioned this was my first murder game, it was actually my second end game in a murder setting due to the way timing worked out.
As I was part of the survivor pool I cannot speak for the ghosts (nor would I want to), but I think it's equally important that both parties feel like they have some impact in end game. This includes all characters regardless of their IC views on things/ skill sets. While I believe that the living should ultimately, largely decide the fate of the game, it's also unfair for the ghosts to have little say/ not contribute in some way. As part of the survivor pool I personally felt very lost on what was actually happening, and I felt like I was just along for the ride, without having an actual real impact on the plot, despite the fact that I did get to engage a demon (which I was thankful for).
Part of the reason I believe this happened is because we were never presented with a concrete outline of what end game was. While we were told there would be no more deaths and that week 11 was largely up to investigating: half of the investigation never happened. While I was able to discover plot information, those who chose to explore the library never got any of their clues at all, which I believe is very unfair. Moreover, I'm not sure how most of the information we got was relevant at all (mole reveal/hostages still alive) aside. What surprises me even more is that it was mentioned in plurk that the relevant library clues would go up but never did. Though this didn't impact me directly, I would have felt uncomfortable reminding you again about them.
While it was interesting to learn more of the details about war torn Lettland, in the end it just...simply didn't seem like it mattered. I honestly feel like anything could have been inserted in place of the information and end game still would have progressed the way it did. It's not that the ideas or plot weren't interesting, but that everything felt discarded just to get the game to an end. I still don't really know what the concrete lines of the plot were, nor do I know if the mayor (who was alluded to in several interactions) had anything important to offer at all? I'd also like to say that if you were swamped, why could these interactions not have been hand waved at the very least? I don't necessary like to hand wave things but due to the time constraints, surely that would have been better than just dropping that plot line altogether.
Personally I believed that the last week would have involved a trial of some sort or at the least, verbal bantering to discover something and then make a decision and outcome which would end the game. After all, that's what the structure of the game had been like all along. Instead end game amounted to a physical/combat log which felt very unfair and out of place, and I play a combatant would actively participated in it. It felt wrong to have characters like Inaba relegated to basement duty, when they have been very active throughout the game, but who didn't really have a place in the middle of a combat situation.
I think what bothers me the most though is that end game felt like it was so incredibly NPC heavy, when what made the game great to me was the interactions between all the characters. I wanted a last chance to rationalize/argue among the survivors, but instead all that happened were a few sparse lines between NPCS. Because of this it felt very underwhelming and non-rewarding.
3.) Adherence to Schedule
I understand that rl happens, but if if a trial is expected to go up at a certain time it should be up at that time, within reason. If for some reason a trial needs to be late due to an unforeseen delay, then a little PSA would go a long way so we're not waiting around for something to happen. This was especially prominent in end game as I would have liked to have taken the day before it went up to do other things, but I didn't want to step away from my computer in case I missed it.
In closing I want to also support that the co-mods should be thanked for what they brought to the game: I had little interaction with either of them in a mod capacity but it's clear they did contribute and deserve credit.
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Thank you.
I wish to start this off with the fact that this is my second murdergame, and that despite all that occurred, I very much enjoyed its run. In fact this is my favorite of the only two I was involved in because I was able to cultivate so much meaningful CR and have my character experience character development.
I was also lucky to have Dhaos get involved in to the plot, and at some point plan to help everyone despite his griping about humans.
However, I have a few issues I had I wished to address. Most of them have been already gone over by the others, so I will not bother too much with that.
One of them was the issue with Lithuania's plot, which Mel had apologized for bless her soul, but I feel as if you, Anna, as a mod should have had the responsibility to make sure things had not gone awry according to that. At that time, I admittedly was a little hurt and felt useless because I had been intending on encouraging the rest of the living to come up with a plan themselves and share information in an IC meeting with them. I was admittedly less enthused than I acted, because I didn't want to offend anyone. That is also why it's hard for me to say this.
I will briefly touch on the way you had info spread. Even before the meeting I wished to tell characters like Faize, Break, Poland and Yoite about stuff from Miata's house. However, nothing could come of it because you dropped Lithuania and Dhaos' thread; I suggested handwaving the details since you said yes when I asked if something important would be discovered there.
Then there was stuff about the mayor's house too but I think CC addressed most of that.
But a larger issue that bothered me than all of this was how Break and Rhys were treated. Especially because during that meeting that was set up, it was mentioned Rhys pretty much wanted to make a coup and kill Miata. I think even icly it was mentioned Rhys only wished to save him and Break. Naturally....this had IC consequences not only just on the plot, but on how the characters percieved Rhys (and possibly Break) to some extent. I know my character instantly thought Rhys was irredeemable because of this and...that's not fair?
It's cruel to spread that kind of misbegotten conception because ...well. It's not true, to get to the heart of it, and something like this and how they were treated truly upsets me more than anything else.
And do not let me get started on how Kelly was treated as well. I am not pleased about that either.
Not to mention, picking favorites? Just why. That is extremely upsetting?
That's truly it, I mean, everything else I had issues were happened to be covered. I also didn't have much to say since I am not feeling well, but. These are my two cents, as it were.
And really, I hope you do realize all of us are saying this not because we dislike or hate you, but because we wish you to improve on these things that could have honestly helped to create a stress-free and fun game for all as a whole.
Also, I would like to thank Tsugumi and Eski for all of their hard work in this. Truly, it's been a pleasure.
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But moving on to the actual feedback. As I said, most of the issues I wanted to address were already covered so I'm just going to say my piece about Jade and I's part in the plot, since it's another example of some of the same issues others had.
I'm not going to lie, we were pretty stoked when Anna handed us the betray button! Who wouldn't be? It's a murder game and everyone loves to betray in murder games, especially me. But that excitement wore off very, very quickly. From an IC perspective, I understand why Anna felt like she had to do something about the mole leak. It makes perfect sense that Katerina would have wanted to investigate that. But Jade and I were never asked for our input as to how to best achieve that with our characters (trying to convince the two of them that they were doing the right thing/she was a victim too would have worked much better than hostages, just ftr). We were never asked if we were still okay with getting a plot role. Hell, we weren't even told ooc'ly what we were getting into. We didn't find out until our characters did, which was halfway through the thread. I'm guessing Anna wanted it to be a fun surprise, and I appreciate that, but a little more transparency would have been nice. As it stands, we were railroaded into a subplot that we had no say in and given no direction or boundaries whatsoever to actually accomplish anything with it.
I get that this is a hobby and that people have rl obligations or just get busy and that's alright! It happens. But that initial thread should not have taken over a week to get to the point it did, especially since it just ended in a handwaved "what else would they ask? here's your answer". And then to make matters worse, literally EVERYTHING after it was handwaved and you just can't do something like that when the mastermind is one of the involved parties. Not with two of the most inquisitive characters in the game. Faize and Hinata had access to Katerina for WEEKS and were presumably conversing with her the whole time, but it was impossible to know how those conversations went, because Anna never had time to actually thread anything out. Which, we had the feeling would be the case from the start, since it was obvious at that point that the plot was already too much for one person to handle running alone. The radio silence from Anna that followed the initial PP only further proved that.
I tried. I tried my hardest with what I was given but nothing ever came of my attempts because...people were too busy?? I guess??? Which, again, I get. I get that people are busy and this is just a hobby. But even so, I was pretty supremely cheesed off when the mole reveal came out and it turned out that Break managed to get into the group because...otherwise he'd kill everyone? Meanwhile, my character, who was worked into the plot for precisely that purpose and given VERY strong impetus to do so, never actually got an answer on his request to join? And the mastermind just let that slide, apparently? Along with the fact that neither he nor his partner managed to get any info at all over the course of almost a month? I'm sorry for all the facetious question marks, but I'm trying to highlight just how much of a clusterfuck this subplot became on an ic level because of the lack of communication on an ooc level. Which was partially my fault, I'll admit. I probably should have said "hey so Faize is gonna do this thing" to Anna directly instead of just letting her to read the private convo with Inaba. But Len said she had to talk to some people about it, so I figured there wasn't much point since "some people" were presumably the rest of the mole group and Anna. I assumed I'd hear back from Anna, Len, or both. I never did. Even when I bugged Len about it, all I got was vague hand gestures and "I don't know, sorry". Again, my bad there because I probably should have bugged Anna, not Len.
tl;dr: Anna, if you ever mod again, you need to communicate better with your players. Like Coco said, utilize both them and the characters that they bring to your game. Let them help shape the plot. IC actions have IC consequences, and that's exactly what this subplot was (and Undyne's shounen death too)! Which was great! I might be a little salty about how it turned out, but I am glad that you didn't just let Inaba and Faize's mistakes slide. However, everything about how it was handled after that was basically a disaster. A disaster that easily could have been avoided if you'd just asked Jade and I for our input and told us what we were getting into. You also need to take care not to overload yourself, because that was obviously a factor here as well. And not just with this particular subplot, but the game as a whole suffered from this. I really think you ended up overestimating just how much you could handle on your own.
Thanks to all three of you for the work you put into this game!